Transcript: Trump Is Running a “Global Mafia”

And you couldn’t ask for a better example of that than comparing Ukraine to Gaza. I think it’s hard to think of a social science experiment one could devise that would show this hypocrisy and these double standards more clearly than opposing the Russian invasion of Ukraine—which I agree with; it was a clear violation of international law—opposing the war crimes that Russia has clearly committed in Ukraine, while supporting those same war crimes day after day after week after month after month in Gaza.

This was catastrophic, not just for the people of Gaza, for the region, I think it’s catastrophic for the United States and for the idea of international cooperation.

So again, when I talk about rules, I think about Gandhi’s quote when he was asked about Western civilization. He said: I think it would be a great idea. If you ask me about the rules-based order, my response is the same. I think it is a good idea; we should endeavor to build something like that. But that requires the United States really agreeing [to] and upholding the rules for ourselves and for our friends when they violate them, and not just give them a pass.

Bacon: Last question. If you were advising somebody running for president in 2028, give me two or three—two or three ideas or principles—that should guide their foreign policy.

Duss: I think invest in the idea of multilateralism—make the case that engaging within the international community, international organizations is not just something nice to do; this is how we advance America’s interest. This is how we keep Americans safer and more prosperous.

I think the second thing I would say is: really start to build a better relationship with China. I think the Biden administration, in my view, unfortunately adopted the previous Trump administration’s approach, that just saw China as a threat and sought to contain that threat. Interestingly, the second Trump administration has not been as hostile to China, but still is very invested in American primacy, including in the Asia-Pacific region.

But China is going to continue to be influential and powerful. It has a huge population. It has a very powerful economy. It has built relationships all over the world, including in the Western Hemisphere. And China has a role to play in shaping the global agenda. And so I think building a better relationship with China … it’s going to be frustrating. Certainly, China’s going to do things that we don’t like, and it’s already doing that. But that’s a hugely important relationship. And there needs to be multiple channels of communication.

And the last thing I would say is: I would love a Democratic nominee to really focus on the idea of accountability. Real accountability. Not just in foreign policy, but in general.

We face a crisis of political legitimacy in this country. That is part of what we’re facing right now. Americans have lost faith in American government, in the political process, in our leaders. In part because they haven’t delivered, but also because they see, time after time, powerful people pay no price.

This is something that Donald Trump has very successfully exploited. When Donald Trump says the system’s rigged, he gets traction with that because the system is rigged. The system is rigged on behalf of people like Donald Trump and his powerful friends.

But you can name Republicans and you can name Democrats who have committed egregious offenses, both of corruption and foreign policy, who have simply skated … faced no consequences whatsoever.

So I think bringing some real accountability to this process and back to American politics, dealing with the fact that our political system is essentially a form of legalized corruption. I think addressing all of these things is really essential for rebuilding—or building—a new, shared kind of political consensus about what the American Project really is.

Bacon: Let me drill down. What would accountability look like? Do you mean, like, the ICE officer who killed the person in Minneapolis is in jail? What do you mean when you say accountability?

Duss: For example, I want to see—going back to Gaza—I want to see all the reports about what we knew, because I know that the Biden administration really did know Israel was violating international law, and yet continued to give them weapons in violation of U.S. law. I want to see those reports. State Department reports. Other reports declassified.

I want those officials to have to answer for what they did in Gaza in a real way—not just in softball interviews on CNN or elsewhere—

Bacon: Or podcasts sponsored by—

Duss: Exactly, on their own podcasts where they pretend to think about what they actually did. That’s one of—for starters.

Bacon: With that—oh, let me ask you a last thing. What did you think about what happened in New York City, the election? What did you make of Zohran’s victory, how it happened? Because you are … in policy, and it seems like Gaza had some role, but he talked about affordability.

It seemed like the Bernie Sanders campaign, but almost advanced a little bit—that’s how I felt about it. He learned the right lessons, is how I saw it, but I’m curious as to how you saw it.

Duss: I think he was really focused on just the struggles of everyday people. Affordability is the new keyword. But that’s important. I think that was something that was a through line we saw not just with Zohran Mamdani’s campaign, but also with Spanberger here in my state of Virginia. We saw that with Sherrill in New Jersey, and others. It’s just connecting your campaign—and I think what Zohran did was inspiring in so many ways because: He’s very talented, he’s a great communicator, he had a great media team, but it was also based on real policy that addressed the real lives and the real struggles of people in New York.

And I think the role that Gaza played was … this is clearly a very important issue for the progressive base—and I would say beyond the progressive base. It is an issues that … stands in for a broader debate about American foreign policy, and about the role that America should play in the world. On what principles, on what basis, according to what laws.

But also for people, I think, who don’t really even pay that much attention to foreign policy, it was just an issue that gave him credibility because he took so much heat. Let’s remember: He is not the one who injected Gaza and Palestine and Israel into this campaign. It was his opponents—

Bacon: Eric Adams and Cuomo—

Duss: —pressing on him on this. And the fact that he stood strong on this issue of principle, I think, gave him credibility across a whole range of other issues. Because people see that and they’re like: This guy is pretty outstanding[ly] firm. He’s speaking clearly about this important issue. Maybe I can believe him on all these other things.

I would say I think it worked in the opposite direction for Kamala Harris, for example. She had some pretty good policies, but then when she had to speak on Gaza, she just regurgitated the same old talking points about, “Israel has a right to defend itself” and “too many people have died.”

I think when people saw that, they’re like: Oh, OK. She’s just saying the usual stuff. I’m not buying it. Maybe if she can be pushed on this, she can be pushed on other things. So I think that’s the lesson Democrats should learn here.

Bacon: Matt Duss, great conversation. Thanks for joining me. Good to see you. Take care.

Duss: Very glad to. Thanks, Perry.